160 ( +1 | -1 ) Fischer caughtThe hunt for Bobby Fischer, the unpredictable chess legend, ended this week when he was detained in Japan, where he awaits possible deportation on charges that he attended a 1992 match in Yugoslavia in violation of a U.S. ban.
The Japanese Immigration Bureau detained the 61-year-old Fischer on Tuesday at Narita International Airport in Tokyo at the urging of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which had recently stepped up efforts to track the fugitive, U.S. authorities said yesterday.
"He's in custody in Japan, and we are awaiting a determination whether he'll be deported back to the United States to face charges," said Allan Doody, special agent in charge of the immigration agency's Washington field office.
U.S. authorities, acting on the outstanding warrant, recently canceled Fischer's U.S. passport after discovering that he had a 90-day visa to visit Japan. Authorities there detained him at the airport for failing to possess valid travel documents, U.S. authorities said.
The warrant for Fischer was issued by a grand jury in 1992 when he violated US sanctions against Yugoslavia by playing a match there against Boris Spassky. For over a decade it looked like the American government was content to ignore Fischer as long as he stayed out of the US, but clearly things have changed.
Found this news at several places, this version can be found at chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1792
I've hat to confess, that I'm looking forward for his trial, Fischer in court might become quite an interesting event.
585 ( +1 | -1 ) Fischer apprehended . . .Here's an Associated Press release on the story:
Checkmate: Fischer Detained in Tokyo By ERIC TALMADGE, Associated Press Writer
TOKYO - In a bizarre end game, Bobby Fischer — the chess world's most eccentric star — was taken into custody after trying to fly out of Japan with an invalid passport.
Wanted at home for attending a 1992 match in Yugoslavia despite international sanctions, the American former world champion had managed to stay one move ahead of the law by living abroad and being sheltered by chess devotees.
It was not immediately clear if Fischer would be handed over to the United States under its extradition treaty with Japan. But his detention gives Japan a chance to show its cooperation with the United States just days before officials plan to bring an accused U.S. Army deserter, Charles Robert Jenkins, to Tokyo for urgent medical treatment — a case Japanese officials want Washington to overlook.
Jenkins, whose Japanese wife was kidnapped by North Korea (news - web sites) in 1978 and returned home in 2002, is wanted by Washington on desertion charges for allegedly defecting to North Korea in 1965. He is suffering from complications after abdominal surgery in North Korea.
Fischer was detained at Narita Airport outside Tokyo after trying to board a Japan Airlines flight to the Philippines on Tuesday, according to friends and airport officials. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said Friday a U.S. consular official had visited Fischer in detention but that he could reveal no further information.
Fischer "didn't know that his passport had been revoked," said Japan Chess Association member Miyoko Watai. "He had been traveling frequently over the past 10 years, and there was never a problem. I don't understand why his passport was revoked."
Watai told The Associated Press she had talked to Fischer in custody. She said he was told he would be deported and was planning to appeal.
Considered by many the best chess player ever, Fischer, now 61, became grandmaster at age 15. In 1972, he became the first American world champion and a Cold War hero for his defeat of Boris Spassky of the Soviet Union in a series of matches in Reykjavik, Iceland.
The event was given tremendous symbolic importance, pitting the intensely individualistic young American against a product of the grim and soulless Soviet Union.
It also was marked by Fischer's odd behavior — possibly calculated psychological warfare against Spassky — that ranged from arriving two days late to complaining about the lighting, TV cameras, the spectators, even the shine on the table.
Fischer was world champion until 1975, when he forfeited the title and withdrew from competition because conditions he demanded proved unacceptable to the International Chess Federation.
After that, he lived in secret outside the United States. He emerged in 1992 to confront Spassky again, in a highly publicized match in Yugoslavia. Fischer beat Spassky 10-5 to win $3.35 million.
The U.S. government said Fischer's playing the match violated U.N. sanctions against Yugoslavia, imposed for Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic (news - web sites)'s role in fomenting war in the Balkans.
Over the years, Fischer gave occasional interviews with a radio station in the Philippines, often digressing into anti-Semitic rants and accusing American officials of hounding him.
He praised the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, saying America should be "wiped out," and described Jews as "thieving, lying bastards." His mother was Jewish.
He also announced he had abandoned chess in 1996 and launched a new version in Argentina, "Fischerandom," a computerized shuffler that randomly distributes chess pieces on the back row of the board at the start of each game.
Fischer claimed it would bring the fun back into the game and rid it of cheats.
Alexander Roshal, of the Russian Chess Federation and chief editor of the chess magazine 64, said he had "mixed emotions" about the former champion.
"On the one hand, Fischer is a tough, notorious and quarrelsome person, but on the other hand he is a chess genius and contributed so much for the development of chess.
"He is a pathologically perverted anti-Semite, which is strange knowing his origin, and I suspect he is not appreciated in America. But on the other hand, he has done so much good for the country and was the only American to defeat the Soviet grandmaster."
Former U.S. champion Alexander Ivanov of Newton, Mass., who followed the Reykjavik matches from the Soviet Union at age 16, said Fischer "was ahead of his time by about 15 years."
Wataia, a longtime friend of Fischer's, said he could be "like a child."
"Chess had been his whole life, so he was sheltered from the world in some ways," she said. "Once he made up his mind, he would never change it, no matter what anyone said. That didn't always make people happy."
His emergence in Japan was not a complete surprise.
Fischer was rumored to be living here and to have frequented a Tokyo chess club. It wasn't clear how long he had been in the country.
"He came here often for short stays," said Watai. "He also traveled to the Philippines, Germany, Switzerland and many places."
American officials had apparently been following his recent movements.
Ferdinand Sampol, Philippine airport immigration chief, said the U.S. Embassy in Manila alerted immigration last week that Fischer might try to enter the country.
"But there was no request to exclude or remove him from the Philippines," he said.
Fischer is believed to have last visited the Philippines in 2003.
Filipino grandmaster Eugene Torre, another old friend, said Fischer had been planning to seek asylum in Switzerland, and was caught off guard by the arrest.
45 ( +1 | -1 ) Cryptos.He was arrested for ignoring sanctions placed on Yugoslavia. These sanctions, which include all sports, is made to isolate the country internationally and force them into a more acceptable form of behaviour.
By playing any sport there or against them isn't there some type of tacit approval of their form of government?
If you are English you can liken it to the English cricketers in the 80's and 90's who went and played in South Africa when apartheid was rife.
181 ( +1 | -1 ) small differenceAs far as I remember the facts about the match in Yugoslavia, it was rather some kind of propaganda event than a sport event. The "match" took place at Sveti Stefan; a small Island, that used to be a popular vacation spot before the war started. Seems to be a very unreal scenario, consindering that maybe 90 miles away a war is going on. A New York Times' reporter asked on the first press conference about his opinion on the war in Yugoslavia, Fischer's response: "Pass on" During this conference Fischer was also asked about the sanctions, his reaction was more or less like this: "A second" Fischer shows a letter from the US treasure department, saying, that Fischer will have to pay a fine of 250.000 us $ or otherwise a 10 years prison sentence, if he participates in that match. After reading it out, Fischer showed this letter to the cameras, and spit on it, screaming: "This is my answer"
So it wasn't just about the chessmatch at all, I guess this gives a small explanation why the U.S. are not that fond of Fischer anymore. Ok, up to now, I think one might question Fischer's moral values to play the marionette in an odd looking political soap opera in Yugoslavia.
But IMHO Fischer must have lost his mind at some point anyhow, just take a look at his "controversial" webpage. home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/ (warning offensive and anti-semitic content) I will not go into detail, what this page is telling it's visitor, since I don't want to repeat it, but it's pretty disgusting. I don't think anybody who's visited that page will argue about the fact that Fischer should have seeked some counselling ages ago.
19 ( +1 | -1 ) I am looking forward…to the Fischer trial back here in the U.S. With his ego, Fischer will, no doubt, try to represent himself. It should make for good theater. With his temperament, I don't see him lasting too long in prison.
30 ( +1 | -1 ) Is there no statute of limitations here? I agree that Fischer is rude and morally perverse, but personally I think arresting someone because they travelled to a country the government doesn't like is petty and a sin against liberty. Thumbs down to this hyperbolic state authority.
18 ( +1 | -1 ) anaxagoras…regardless of whether you think it is fair or not, Fischer knowingly broke the law, has spent the last decade fleeing justice, and will now have to answer for his actions. IMO, he deserves no mercy.
25 ( +1 | -1 ) anaxagoraswhat is there about the american government that is of or relating to a hyperbola? i looked at your profile and i guess you're not really the math type. please don't use math terms where they are not applicable just to sound smart and educated.
11 ( +1 | -1 ) honololoumaybe you have been playing chess a little bit too much. this is NOT a black and white world.
36 ( +1 | -1 ) Gentlemen . . .Gentlemen, everyone is entitled to their opinions about Mr. Fischer, whether pro or con, and they all should be welcome here on this Chess Related forum. But please, let's do not get caught up in name calling or any personal attacks over it or else we will lose this thread, like so many others have been lost, by banishment. Thank you.
55 ( +1 | -1 ) Interesting...I'm not really that interested in the whole thing. I clicked on the Fischer site and got bored. I agree with honololou.. Fischer DID knowingly break the law and has spent the last decade fleeing justice. Whether or not he deserves what is coming to him is neither here nor there. Certainly, he can't complain about his circumstances as we all have freedom to choose our behavior. If he does spend time in prison, he will have plenty of time to reflect on his decisions.. and perhaps get what he really wants.. more uninterrupted time to play chess.
107 ( +1 | -1 ) IMHOI have to point out as far as I know sanctions given by George Bush Sr were targeted against _exporting_ money or services to Yugoslavia. US Chess Federation was buying LOTS of chess books from Yugoslavia (from Sahovski, I believe), thanks to special permission Fischer applied (according to Fischer :-))) without success. Several sports events were allowed as well.
To me it looked like US authorities had very little interest to arrest Fischer. He gave several radio interviews, and often his precise location was well known. But no real actions were taken to "catch" him. I believe knowing his personality and bizarre views US authorities were unwilling to let him play vs Spassky, especially in Yugoslavia. When he ignored the "warning letter" it was too late to turn back. However, keeping Bobby out of USA was convinient for everyone, compared to dragging former national hero to the court. Lots of people will hate him because of his views (applauding 11/9 attacks) and others will ask how can one be punished for playing chess. Either way, no one wins.
162 ( +1 | -1 ) wellin honololou's defence I think he's right in a way, Fischer broke a law willingly, that's a fact, and he'll have to face a trial for it, that doesn't have anything more to do with a black and white perspective than a law-system in general has. A law system usually works with a binary code (legal - illegal), that's a black and white view on the world, correct; but this is afaik the way a law system works, and moral is of relatively little meaning to it. I also think, that the trial will be of some entertaining value, if Fischer doesn't have any doctors, who say he's not healthy enough for a trial. If the trial takes place, Fischer will be most of the time telling something about one big conspiracy or ridicule the whole trial in a way similar to what Milosevic did in Den Haag (this prediction is a personal opinion)
Hum, the point about the US goverment, I'm not sure, if I'm allowed to make any comments on the current US gov., since I'm not an American, so I better leave it out.
But back to Fischer, if I'm not wrong in addition to his "match" vs. Spassky in Yugoslavia, also Fischer's "morale" concerning paying his taxes, has never been that great. "I've never paid any taxes, why should I start to do so now" or something like that, is quotation that is attributed to him.
But one thing about Fischer's arrest now is indeed looking a little bit odd, the US gov. seemed to be quite comfortable with the status-quo (that Fischer would never ever enter the USA again), but now they decided otherwise. I guess I've an explanation, why he wasn't put in front of a jury in the late 70's or in the 80's, but that the USA cancelled his passport after more than 10 years is really some kind of a surprise.
17 ( +1 | -1 ) Good points all . . .Good points all, but one fact cries out for clarification. The economic sanctions wre imposed on Bulgaria, not Yugoslavia, and they were enacted by the United Nations, not by President Bush, Sr.
9 ( +1 | -1 ) I correct myself . . .The sanctions were against Yugoslavia, but they were imposed by the U.N., not by President Bush, Sr.
25 ( +1 | -1 ) peppe the sanctions concerning sport workedJust remember the UEFA European Championship back in 1992, Yugoslavia was banned from this tournament because of the war, and Denmark gained their spot in the tournament roster and won it. ;)
And the UN sanctions were imposed on Yugoslavia if I'm not totally wrong.
47 ( +1 | -1 ) ClarificationsSports events - yes Yugoslavia was banned from UEFA European Championship. But as far as I know there were exceptions concerning _American_ sportsmen competing in Yugoslavia..?
Sanctions - yes imposed by UN, I know. BUT my point is we are talking about Fischer = American citizen here. I believe George Bush Sr used so called "executive order" to prevent American citizens from exporting money or services to Yugoslavia. I confess my choice of words was poor, sorry :-)
62 ( +1 | -1 ) humthe addition that sanctions were imposed on yugoslavia was a response to fliszt, but he corrected himself while I was typing, sorry for not making that clear. ;)
But Peppe your choice of words in your former post might be interpreted in a way, that George W. is once again trying fullfill daddy's legacy... ;)
But anyhow, I still think the timing is particularly interesting, hasn't just one former American GI appeared, who probably deserted to North Korea and who is married to a Japanese woman, and who has to go to Japan for medical treatments regularly?
Hum, I guess Bobby's spirit has inspired creativity concerning conspiracies ;)
25 ( +1 | -1 ) sharpnova: hyperbola vs. hyperboleAnaxagoras used the right term. You're confusing the math term "hyperbola" (one of the conic sections) with the logic term "hyperbole" (exaggeration with the intent to persuade). He IS a philosophy student, which means he has studied logic if not math . . .
20 ( +1 | -1 ) nova…before you go around pointing fingers at others, you may want to refer to a dictionary. There you will find that the word "hyperbole" has meanings outside the realm of mathematics. Happy reading.
16 ( +1 | -1 ) I have a feelingDiscussion about BF & US politics (to certain extent) will lead to personal insults, OT stuff and Mike closing this thread :-)))
Mark my words...
26 ( +1 | -1 ) well, I think you might be righthave to confess I'm allways tempted to make a remark, but in a way I'm relieved because the insult started before my remark, but I'll watch my tongue and my fingers even more carefully to avoid any further comments, which might conclude to my opinion about it.
14 ( +1 | -1 ) P.S.this thread is relatively harmless, just took a look at chessgames.com compared to them, this thread is absolutely peaceful
25 ( +1 | -1 ) Poor Watai-san!Watai-san, the longtime Secretary of the Japan Chess Federation and many times a member of the Japanese team at the Chess Olympics, is a very nice lady. I'm sorry that she's caught up in all of this--perhaps too kind for her own good in this case?
16 ( +1 | -1 ) peppe_l"Lots of people will hate him because of his views (applauding 11/9 attacks) and others will ask how can one be punished for playing chess. Either way, no one wins. "
342 ( +1 | -1 ) Where Chess is played/Bobby FischerOver a decade ago similar questions arose from a FIDE ban against South Africa, to bar titled players from Chess there. Someone (Quinteros?)did a tmt or simul there. Another Chess Pro, as is RJF. FIDE banned the player some years. PIXIE-POODLE; As far as I know, it was not intended as endorsement of that or any government, rather the primary issue being should Chess (& sports) figures be able to play with-out political considerations. A philosophical stand, and re pursuit of A Living in their chosen field, & some suggested Chess as a door-opener or continuing dialog might result. Many top Chess Journalists and pro-players were in support of that player. Others were not. .......If we put ourselves in RJF's place; claims he was having things repossed or siezed from him by some with financial concerns (I've NO idea nor opinion). But say it were each of us found ourselves getting destitute. But your job is going to pay you 3 million dollars this year. Should do fine on that! :-) Suddenly someone, eg your gov, says sorry you're not permitted to do that job. Instead you must lose everything. Except your citizenship. 1.What would YOU do? 2. Would you be Happy about it, whatever you decide ? It must be a tough choice to be faced with: A) Give up your country for 3+ million dollars & no Treason involved, or B)Give up your livelyhood to retain your country but collapse into poverty? Perhaps if choosing "A" one could be wise to seek citizenship elsewhere. On the otherhand, his disagreement could be said to be with an Administration, not his country, necessarily. Might also be said he could pursue A Living someother way or place. Maybe or maybe not, at that same income level ?! Isn't THAT a Rock & a Hard Place.
***************** The other thought: Can RJF be said to be any more than 'accused of defying (as per Peppi-I) an Executive order' (if from the President or State Dept.) ? To my understanding (or lack of?!), thats Regulation, not necessarily Law or crimminal. And penalties specified, if any, are likely civil or monetary, if so. Though the Act of breaching such a Regulation might be written to statute as a crimminal violation of statutory law?! But is that the case in this instance? Something to consider before suggesting USA Law was broken by intent or otherwise. (Particularly, if only a U.N. declaration, per FLIST, not some Executive Order or Administrative or Court Directive, etc) Also, does RJF stand convicted of a crime by a US court of law? Or only suspected or accused ? Don't expect to ever see an RJF for Sainthood campaign. He is purported to have some very uncharitable views and remarks attributable to him. However, I've had an experience of seeing a number of persons be subjects of untrue Chess related print. *** Just lately more, by a little known Chess writer. (In defense of whom it can be said, I'm not aware of any claim of truthfulness nor accuracy, by same. Maybe we Should have a Chess Journalist's Oath, disclaimer, or Seal of Approval ?! :) *** That's all from elsewhere, not GK, & does not involve this here either. But for being unpleasant to behold. .......I AM interested in your views on how much International relations be made Chess considerations? Especially at pro &/or FIDE type level? I'm not qualified to draw a line for others. And will undoubtably never be in such a situation, having only played USCF otb. But then I wonder...might this some day influence who we play via Corr Chess or Online Chess?! Hmmm . . . ? Sorry so long. Tried to edit. Regards, Craig
91 ( +1 | -1 ) save bobby fischer!!! More Hyperbole.Excuse me, but nobody has addressed the issue here. 10 years for playing a chess match against the orders of the American Government??? You must be joking! This is hardly the most heinous of crimes, is it. It hardly registers on the richter scale compared with, for instance, attacking an unprotected country and killing 11,000 innocent civilians (no prizes for guessing which country I'm referring to). Who cares if he broke the law if the law is vile and unjust??? I bet the U.S. government doesn't even consider chess a 'sport'!!! And like, sanctions really worked against Yugoslavia didn't they? Like, not!!! Duh!!! Yet another case of interfering stupid politicians trying to make political capital by sacrificing an innocent individual. Boo!!! I think we should all write letters of protest to the U.S and Japanese governments forthwith!
By the way, 'Hyperbole' comes from Hyperbolus, who was an individual in the old Athenian democracy (about 400 B.C) who used to drone on endlessly and bore everybody to tears.:)
73 ( +1 | -1 ) cryptos.I think the fact that you can call Fischer an "innocent individual" either shows your ignorance of his beliefs and lifestyle or that you agree with them.
When a country is mistreating its own citizens, as Yugoslavia were, other countries should not allow thier sporting heros to go and perform there. By doing so you are tacitly agreeing to the way they do things.
In addition surely you can understand that the government of a country that is being torn apart by civil war, some would say ethnic cleansing, should not be trying to stage sporting efforts but sorting out their own mess.
In my eyes Fischer is another in the long line of people at the top of their sport who have wasted the opportunity to be a moral leader.
a) how playing a game of chess in a country means giving 'tacit' approval to the actions of the government (by that logic I support Tony Blur) b) why such action should merit a 10 year jail sentence c) why sport should be used as a moral football (excuse the pun).
Granted Fischer has caused some harm with his anti-semitic comments, but my understanding is that he is himself part-jewish and has a difficult family background, which, while not an excuse, should be taken into account.
By the way, I don't believe you are a five year old poodle.:)
218 ( +1 | -1 ) Hello everyone and anyone!!About Bobby Fischer. I also do not think what he did by playing in a sanctioned country is that big a deal. Yes, he broke the US law but that in itself probably would not amount to a "hill of beans." Then there is the other matter of failure to declare and pay income taxes on the money he earned for that match. Yes, he owes taxes on that money. This is another law he broke.
About the anti-American and other statements he made. While many people do not like them they are not against our laws. He has the right of free speech in a public forum.
Now about this foum. Even though it is a public forum it is regulated by Mike as to content. Appropriate comments are spelled out and many threads have been shut down because the "rules" have been abused.
I am proud to say that I am an American. I spent over 20 years in the military and 61+ years in this country which I really enjoy living and in which I have raised my family.
I do not go around bashing any other countries because I know that many people in those countries are proud citizens as well. Therefore, any US bashing is looked upon by me as a direct insult to me and my family. So please refrain from doing this.
I fully expect more people to post anti-US rhetoric here. When that happens I will ask Mike to shut this thread down. This is just one of the many reasons that these Forums do not work. A conversation about chess ends and politics, religion or many other controversial topics begin. They have no place in these Forums and I for one do not appreciate seeing it in a site that I pay to play chess and have use of the Forums if I want.
People have said in the past that "If you do not like it then do not read it." This is wrong. I pay to access all of the features of GK and should not restrict myself to only part of the site because some people break the existing "rules" for what is appropriate and what is not.
So I ask each and everyone to please be careful in what you say here unless your dialog is intentionally aimed at inflaming a certain individual or group. Chuck
136 ( +1 | -1 ) cryptos and chuckcryptos: If I'm not wrong at least one of Fischer's Parents is Jewish, but he himself claims "to be not Jewish and to have never been Jewish" and his anti-semitism is disgusting.
The 10 year sentence is afaik partly because of breaking the sanctions and partly because he's a tax-cheat. (Remember Al Capone was sentenced to prison for the same "mistake"; which doesn't mean I compare the two of them in any other way)
As I've mentioned above I don't really feel like I'm in the position to critize the US, since I'm not a US citizen. This argument is ok, and I don't have a problem with it. Nevertheless I don't agree with you in that point that critizising current US politics is some kind of taboo. I (like many Europeans) regard some of the decission of the current US gov. at least as doubtful, BUT nevertheless the USA are a great country with a lot of good people and you have every right to be proud of it. But to mistake critism of politics with anti-americanism is imho a mistake (the latter should be banned you're right about that). Unfortunately in some posts here this distinction wasn't that clear, so thanks for this little reminder. Seperating Chess from politics is in this particular case of R.J. Fischer imo difficult, but if this discussion leads to a discussion about the war on Iraq (on which Fischer also made some comments :) ), it would be way out of topic, no doubt about it.
167 ( +1 | -1 ) CryptosIn answer to your questions,
a) There is a difference to competing in a chess game in a country with a democratically elected government to competing in a chess game in a country being torn apart by civil war. I personally see a problem for the U.S. if on the one hand they are trying to sort out Yugoslavia, through the UN, and on the other claiming tax is owed to them by a person competing in a sporting event at the same place. They can't have it both ways. They can either try to isolate Yugoslavia internationally, as they did, to bring about change, or they can work from the inside to bring about change. Not both. The world community chose the first option. (Just like it did with South Africa in the 80's and 90's).
b) The 10 year jail sentence is probably media hype. This is probably the maximum sentence available under this crime. I went to the cinema last night and an advert told me that if I was caught filming the film I would be liable upto 5 years in jail and an unlimited fine. Both you and I know that if I had done this and got caught this punishment would have been unlikely.
c) Sport is used as a moral football by countries all over the world. Just look at the amount of money the western world puts into funding their own olympic athletes when, in the western world, one child in five is currently being born into poverty.
This is an interesting discussion which I hope people don't vote to delete. Is it related to chess and hopefully we can refrain from being offensive to those who don't agree with our views (me included).
Anyway, I'm off to take my owner for a walk....
37 ( +1 | -1 ) This discussion is asymptotically approaching absurdity! <--- Oh! That was a good one! ;-)
I understand that it is very, very difficult to have a discussion about RJF without going offtopic, delving into politics and all sorts of other issues. The subject is really charged with that much controversy and emotion. We can agree to disagree here, and let the story play out on its own.
12 ( +1 | -1 ) pixie_poodle"There is a difference to competing in a chess game in a country with a democratically elected government..."
Like Libya? :-)
5 ( +1 | -1 ) So what is happening to Bobby now - is he still in Japan?
87 ( +1 | -1 ) Lybia=Yugoslavia?Message: to compare Lybia with Yugoslavia is imo a problem, because there's no war going on, and to compare Gaddafi with Milosevic is a bit unfair towards Gaddafi. Lybia has (compared to other third world countries) afaik at least a working health system and relatively low rate of aliteracy and the rates of infant mortality is with 2.8% also relatively low. And I think the UN sanctions on Lybia have been canceled. Gaddafi might be a crook for what he did in the past (esp. Lockerbie) and for rejecting democratic reforms, but one has to keep this and a few other things about Lybia in mind, like the role of the women in society, women are afaik allowed to attend university or to have career in the police, which is afaik not that usual in some other Arabic countries.
If anything I've written above is totally wrong, please feel free to correct me.
12 ( +1 | -1 ) I quoted...pixie_poodle, who wrote:
"There is a difference to competing in a chess game in a country with a _democratically_ elected government..."
10 ( +1 | -1 ) hehbut your addition "like Lybia" seemed to be a bit like a comparisson between Lybia and Yugoslavia :)
ok, my bad. :)
9 ( +1 | -1 ) This message thread is closed for new posts as it is turning into a political discussion.